Comments on: Manhunter #8: A Medical Review

By: Aine

Aine — Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:14:08 +0000

The problem I have with the concept of being immune to snake venom is the time frame. As Jonathan said, snake venom is a protein and as such we are capable of making antibodies that bind said protein (in fact, you would be surprised at some of the stuff that we can make antibodies to). The question is, can we make them in time? Despite what a lot of comic book writers think, we do not have antibodies free floating around in our bodies just waiting to jump something. There are a number of reasons for this but they all tend to boil down to Becuase That Would Be A Bad Thing. B-cells make antibodies and to do this they need to get activated. Activation takes time. Even with the speeded up pace of an immune response that we get with memory (i.e. your body kick starts your immune system faster the second time it is exposed to the same disease) we are still talking about days here, not hours. And there’s a reason why you have to get to a hospital RIGHT NOW when you get bitten by a snake.

Haas’ immunity to venom could be due to a number of things. He may have been exposed to venom so often that there were activated B-cells in his blood all the time (what a life he must have led!) or it could be that his innate immune system was what was reacting to the venom (unlike the adaptive arm of the immune system, your B- and T-cells, the innate arm can react within hours). Both are equally likely. His immunity could even be physiological but I don’t know enough to give an educated statement on that. What I do know is this; despite what scientists and doctors would have us think, we actually know sod all about how the immune systen works. It’s like a black box – bad things go in and immune responses come out. What happens inbetween knowbody dut god knows and sometimes even he’s fumbling for an explanation.

And Kate would not have become immune to other snake venoms unless the antigen her immune system reacted to was present in multiple snake venoms, and from what I know, snake venom proteins are a very disparate lot. I mean, we don’t even get universal immunity to the flu virus despite getting exposed to it far more frequently than snake venom.

Sorry about the length of this.

By: Scott

Scott — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:28:26 +0000

Certainly organisms can develop antibodies against snake venom, that is how antivenom works — it is horse serum/antibodies against that particular toxin. The issue of developing resistance comes down to 1) amount of antibodies required (usually a great deal) and 2) the particular toxins involved. For instance, someone who built up a “resistance” (if possible) to viper venoms may not have the same benefit agains elapid venoms, because they are different families of snakes and toxins.

Any volunteers for field testing?

By: Jim Henley

Jim Henley — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:58:15 +0000

I believe acquired snake venom tolerance is an established fact. There was a fellow named Pete (?) Haass in the 1970s who was so immune that his blood was used in at least one case to save a man who had been bitten. This is all pre-Google, at least until archives of the Weekly Reader get published on the web and indexed.

By: David

David — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:11:08 +0000

I don’t know if it’s in any way comparable, but I’ve noticed that bee stings actually produce a progressively nasty reaction in me as opposed to inoculating me in subsequent instances. (Not that I routinely get stung by bees, but there was one summer when a ground nest of the little stingers made mowing the lawn an adventure.)

Or maybe I’m just chemically weird and venomously ignorant.

By: David Oakes

David Oakes — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:12:58 +0000

Short DCU answer:

All superhero genetics are Lamarckian. Having survived a bite from a poisonous super-villain, it is almost guaranteed that Kate has developed a super-power level of immunity to such toxins. What is more unlikely is that she hasn’t developed full-blown snake abilities. (Though it seems that once a person’s abilities have been determined – even among gadget using heroes – they rarely change. Ante-Lamarckian, shall we say?)

Short real world answer:

Antivenoms are produced by injecting a lab animal – often a horse – with the venom, letting them produce an immune response, then drawing their blood and extracting the corresponding antibodies. This is why antivenoms are venom specific. (There is hope that the natural immunity that some snakes have to theirs own, and other, venoms will lead to a multiple use antivenom. Real life immitates comic books.)

There are also numerous stories of people being bitten and surviving, only to be bitten again with little effect. Or exposing themselves to increasing dosages of venom and developing an immunity. Of course, a number of these are also linked to ongoing investigations by thr FDA. But it is theoretically possible, since humans can produce venom antibodies just like a horse.

I like this one because it mentions “Copperhead” so many times:

http://www.smuggled.com/snaven2.htm

Just think about exposing snake venom to gamma rays in a comic book universe:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0104-79301995000100002&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

By: Jonathan Ehrich

Jonathan Ehrich — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 05:07:34 +0000

Random comment from someone who only half knows what he’s talking about…

On the one hand, since many snake venoms (maybe even all) are proteins it seems plausible that one could develop an immune response to them. On the other hand, generally when one develops an immune response to venoms (bees being an obvious example) it isn’t really at all good for the person in question.

Ultimately, though, I’ll have to stick with you in the “very unlikely but not completely sure” category.